So, yesterday we had the Liechtenauer - Fiore seminar, and it was a cracker! Lots of interesting new material to learn, especially since the Liechtenauer stuff is really quite different from the things we usually do.
We started by learning the basics of the Meisterhau, starting from Zornhau, and also the different context of German longsword duelling. They fought using a quite distinct ruleset and that explains some of the variation in the systems. Wearing shirts rather than gambesons, and both sides being able to initiate attacks, really does change the game quite a bit. The whole idea of initiative and fighting in the Vor makes much more sense to me now.
Other observations, pretty much at random:
1. It's a bit easier to throw a right oberhau from Vom Tag than a mandritto fendente from Posta di Donna. The mechanics are a bit different, and that also makes it a lot easier to make the strike non-telegraphic. The price is that there's rather less power behind the blow, but again if you're in shirtsleeves that hardly matters.
2. There's a whole lot of shifting of the grip, much more so than needed in Fiore. You really do need nimble fingers, as well as preferably a rather long hilt, to make it work.
3. (related to 2) the thumb-on-blade grip gives you very quick ballistic motions. With a flick of the wrist you can get the sword moving all over the place. The flip side is that there's very little support, so the sword is also a lot easier for your opponent to displace.
4. Binding and winding is a lot of fun. Duplieren and Mutieren look weird and over-elaborate to the Fiore-trained eye, but they're effective and not actually as hard to do when you've had a chance to practice a bit.
5. Single-time parry-riposte is a great concept, but it's very challenging to execute. Part of the problem is that it gives you a lot less time to react, or rather it places a lot of pressure to make the right decision and execute well in the first cycle. A dui tempi action slows down the action and allows more time for both sides to think. This can be a good or bad thing depending on the opposition.
6. I'm pleased I managed to work out the counter to a Krumphau against an oberhau (hint: Schnappen). And to realize that it's basically the same type of action as the 1st play of the 1st master of Zogho Largo.
7. You can score points in freeplay by playing at a higher intensity than your opponent is willing to, ie. by accepting a greater risk of injury. As the bulk of that risk falls to your opponent, that's something I'm not willing to do. I want to practice the art, and become good at fencing, not get cheap wins by fighting and bullying. It's an issue because I'm on the larger/stronger end of the scale, and if I really wanted to I could skip the fencing and just barge in every time. But that's not a learning experience. Speedblitzing and going at a speed where you can't control yourself is also a problem, and again I'd rather err on the side of caution. If it means I lose every bout I play, so be it. Training isn't about winning, it's about getting better, and respecting the art and your training partners.
There's a lot to think about and work on, and I haven't really absorbed everything. I'm pretty sure that in the weeks to come I'll be running to the Liechtenauer material every so often as something falls into place. That's only a good thing though. In the end I'll probably stay a loyal Fiore man, but having a bit of experience with other styles really does make you appreciate your own that much more.
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5 comments:
Hi!
Sounds like a useful seminar. Out of curiosity, how did you the concept of vor make less sense previously? I find it hard to put it down to difference in context, as it is so little discussed by the manuscripts from the era. Also, the concept of timing in the L tradition can be applied to Fiore's techniques quite easily, regardless of whether or not one is designated as attacker or defender. Don't you think?
A simplistic conception of Vor is that one should be attacking all the time, ie. gaining and keeping the initiative by being on the offensive. But a more subtle interpretation suggests that it's possible to be in the Vor even if your opponent is the one moving/attacking, if that means he's playing your game and you can direct the fight. If you're prepared for whatever he can do, then you have the initiative because every action he makes just gives you an opportunity to hit him... at least that's my understanding of what Guy said.
In other (Italian) words, if every action the opponent takes offers you a tempo in which to hit him, you're in the Vor. In that sense even a dui tempi action can be occurring in the Vor, because it's controlling the opponent's weapon and opening him up for the attack.
That may seem obvious but hearing and practicing made it more real to me. As you point out, it's a useful way of thinking about who's actually in control of the fight, regardless of who's doing the attacking.
I'm by no means an expert of Liechtenauer swordsmanship, but I think you're referring the mental game too much by the concepts of vor and nach. Maybe.
You can hit your opponent in nach, if their sword is moving away from you, for example in preparation of a blow, but rather every time you hit your opponent you are in the vor.
An attack is in the vor, a defense is in the nach, to strip your opponent from his counter you work indes.
The vor, indes and nach happen in every action, and by understanding the concept you can turn every situation to your advantage.
That works too. You know I have a tendency to overthink these things. What you're saying is a more practical way of expressing what I was trying to get at, I think, but more in terms of actions rather than expectations or tactics.
Your point is definitely valid and perhaps more useful than the way I was thinking about it. Will have to work on this quite a lot more methinks.
There's a lot in this to think about. If your opponent makes a mistake, and opens himself up without threatening you, either by way of preparing an action or missing, you can truly hit in nach, following him. If you have the vor and you attack, you need to have both the vor- and the nachslach, your first strike is the vorslach, and when he parries (as he is forced to do so!) you hit him with your nachslach as he parries (indes). The meisterhaw are there to give you a way of working in the nach so that as you parry, you can hit him quickly, in the time between his vor and nachslach (again, indes).
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