The Turku seminar was pretty interesting. Quite low-intensity physically, more of a technical sort of thing. Some useful stuff on structure - constructing a guard - which was pretty much the same as what we'd done for rapier earlier. Also, forming the guard dynamically, by entering it with a strike - for example, throwing a nice expansive roverso fendente and swinging back into posta di donna destra. These are exercises that help us discover what good structure feels like so that we can eventually enter the guards straight away.
Lots of work as well on the stretto-largo thing. I'm getting a handle on Guy's interpretation of it. Essentially, stretto is a fairly tightly defined situation - equal structural positions, crossed in the middle, pressure in the bind such that if one leaves the bind the opponent will strike in that very tempo. Hence when it occurs, the one viable response is to "enter with a cover and come to the close play". It's a specific place to be in, but one that occurs often enough that we have to learn to deal with it - and more importantly, because it actually requires a different set of techniques to deal with. Hence the division between the stretto and largo plays: largo is, in a sense, the broader picture, what you do when you can act more or less freely; stretto is the type of play that you perform when the tactical situation sets up so that you have to enter while maintaining your cover.
It makes sense, and I see the logic of the interpretation. It's somewhat different from the Bolognese tradition, where stretto is defined primarily in terms of half-cuts and the point remaining in presence; while this is somewhat the case in Fiore, there's a subtle but significant difference, perhaps merely in emphasis, perhaps substantive. I'm not sure what I think as yet, and I know that Guy and Ilkka have different views on the matter. The problem is that the defining line between stretto and largo cannot be clearly drawn. It depends on the players, the specific setup of the cross, even on things like how long the swords are. It varies, and while there are points on the continuum which are clearly largo and clearly stretto, the grey area is broad and ultimately dependent on individual judgement. Someone else might be able to play largo in a situation where I'm forced to play stretto. I think that element of judgement is precisely why it's so hard to reach a consensus on the matter.
That having been said, it now seems to me that stretto is the more tactically difficult situation to play in. Everything is compressed, both in distance and in time. And while the decision tree may collapse to the default pass with a cover, the execution of that precise technique becomes particularly important, especially when one's opponent is aware that it's the one option left. Being able to play largo when one's opponent is in stretto is a huge advantage. It's also telling when Marozzo says that the fencer who knows the close play will chase the fencer who knows only wide play around the salle (and hence, you should pay him the seven Bolognese Pounds extra to learn the close play!).
We worked on this in Monday's intermediate class as well. Tiny class - just myself, Jan and Tomi Korkalainen were in attendance, but it turned out to be a really useful session. We did some solo practice followed by half-speed freeplay, all directed at improving flow, getting rid of stickiness, improving decision-making. It all worked pretty nicely - by the end of the session things were getting a lot smoother and there were some nice points.
I've had some frustrations and hiccups in my training over the past year, but it looks like things are picking up a bit. I'm happy with my current progress, both in longsword and rapier, and while there's (as always) so much to work on, I can look back and feel that I've made progress. I'm a better fencer and martial artist than I was six months ago, and that's what is really important. Looking forward, there are so many more peaks to scale, but I'm feeling enthusiastic not just about the accomplishment but the very process itself, and that's really the only place to be if you're going to get anywhere at all.
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8 comments:
Ken,
I wish to clarify what my take on this. What Guy seems to be describing is not very far from how I see it.
There are three things to notice.
1) Gioco Largo
2) Gioco Stretto
3) "Stretti" of the swords
The two last are not the same, but related.
In all fighting we go from out of range to punches, kicks and strikes to wrestling and grips.
Gioco largo teaches you to skirmish as Marozzo says. You go in and you come out, hopefully striking your opponent with your sword (or, as an analogue, with your punches and kicks).
Gioco Stretto teaches you to stand firm with your strikes, leaving the point in line, as opposed to letting it turn around or end in low guards as you do in largo. When your sword is in line, so might be his, and you might end up in the third situation, which is this pressure you also mentioned, where you can not strike your opponent freely for fear of his weapon.
From there, you go to your grips and kicks and things, which you could call gioco stretto as well, since gioco stretto means nothing but "close play". As an analogue, you throw your kicks and punches to open up a way to enter into your grapples.
There really might not be more to it. You can see this going on in any fight, even in movie fights. You can see the two modes.
This is further shown by the various advice given by various masters... you can't be forced to cross swords as you can always escape by stepping back, your presas are part of the close play as are throws and disarms and so on.
Perhaps in Fiore as well, but in the Bolognese material the stretti are a very equal situation, even artificially so perhaps for pedagocical reasons.
Let me know if this is unclear.
Yours,
Ilkka
Thanks Ilkka.
I didn't want to speak for you as I wasn't sure what your take on it is, exactly. Am I right then to say that it's a difference in emphasis, that maybe the way Guy puts it is more analytical (such and such conditions, when fulfilled you get gioco stretto, else you're in gioco largo). It seems to me that the way you describe it is more... I don't know, tactical in nature? Or perhaps more of a feeling?
I'm trying to grasp this myself. It seems to me that it's the kind of thing where once you've got an idea of it, it's very clear, but if you're listening to others and trying to figure it out it's maddeningly opaque.
Thanks for the quick reply though!
Hi Ken!
No problem speaking for me. Even if we would be in disagreement with Guy (both of understanding that the vocabulary simply may not apply to both Fiore and Bolognese while we don't wish to be using this vocabulary in two different ways when fencing, teaching and so on) about this we both agree that what is extremely frustrating is the difficulty of explaining this in simple terms.
But to clarify my view more, no it is not tactical and it is not a feeling, it is about a way of using the sword.
It becomes tactical when, if you are really close to your enemy, you can not use long tempi and wise actions as that would get you killed, and there are other considerations like if your opponent is playing in largo you make him think that you would play in stretto and then you would strike him in largo and so on, but these topics get more complicated and better experimented sword in hand.
It is also not a feeling, because the actions you use define your play, not just how you relate to them.
I can watch you fence, and tell which play you are using by noticing whether you look for a crossing or avoid (bind/yield or feint), whether you use full or half tempi, whether you always push in at your opponent or if you step back to break measure, whether go for presas or not and so on. Even from the guards you use. This is easy to see, and quite useful to spot from your opponent. It falls into the same kind of category as noticing which foot he has forward, what guards he uses, does he wait for your attacks or attack himself and so on. When fencing with him, you pay attention to what he will do: will he start with cuts from a further measure to provoke you to parry and then trying to create an opening in which to strike you, or whether he approaches to measure with point online, or by way of clever thrusts. In other words, if he plays in largo or if he plays in stretto.
If he plays in the stretto you will most likely have to strike him in the stretto, but you can try to provoke him by playing in largo by keeping your distance, this way he will be intimidated and he will not be successful with his plans; then, if he rushes in you can be resolute and quickly overcome him by playing stretto yourself (ie. being quicker and better at the crossing when you allow it to happen).
If he plays in largo, you can strike him in both, and any successful strike will bring your point to his presence, but what would be the point of chasing his sword for a crossing if he is good in avoiding that? Make him think he has made you follow his blade, but then strike him quickly inside his large tempi, in gioco largo.
Remember also that in the Bolognese this terminology probably comes from the "gioco", or play. There is more to be gained by gioco largo in a "friendly" bout than there is in mortal combat. While it'd be a source of great honor to play in largo in a real fight successfully, it is also more dangerous, especially if your opponent is timid.
One more thing, about the conditions, you may practice them more or less static, and in a set drill the way you get into a stretto of the swords will likely be a bit artificial anyway, it does happen in free fencing and you will know it when it happens. It's just like the forearm drill. Easy to understand in the static artificial way, but more challenging to create a "drill" that would lead to such a feeling. Yet, even in something like push-hands the distinct feeling of both is not at all alien to us.
I hope this further clarifies.
yo dude, just wondering what is the cost for the course? i am interested to join the beginner course.
@Anonymous - Beginners' course is on now, Tuesdays at 1800. Cost is 120 euros, 90 for concession. Two months' training, including regular classes.
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